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Sunday, 25 June 2006

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Bertus Boshoff

Clive, jy kritiseer Afrikaners se reaksie op jou artikel as "gutter level". Jy noem verder dat jy gehoop het jou artikel 'n "civilized and dignified" bespreking sou ontlok.

Wat is "civilized and dignified" daaraan om te roep vir die genadedood van Afrikaans? Wat anders kan dit wees as 'n aanval wanneer iemand iets van jou wil doodmaak?

Volgens COLLINS se Engelse woordeboek beteken "euthanasia" die volgende - "gentle, painless death; putting to death in this way;to relieve suffering".

Ten minste wens jy Afrikaans 'n pynlose dood toe.

Raymond Greenberg

Hi Clive, here is my response on our forum to your post:

clivesimpkins wrote:
Thanks Raymond, for your insights. Here's my response: Regards, Clive

CS:
I'm OK with being considered an 'arse' if it helps explore issues which I believe are important in the social context in South Africa. I just don't understand why most of the language on Moneyweb in response to what I wrote, went to gutter-level instead of being a civilised and dignified discussion. That's disappointing.

Raymond: Clive, partykeer vind mense dit gemaklik om "gutter level statements" met "gutter level responses" te begroet! Jou stelling dat Afrikaans van die ventilators afgehaal moet word, spreek boekdele van so 'n vyandige "gutter level statement"

CS:
Raymond, I responded on the Moneyweb blog talking about the absurdity of a black child having to learn English when Mother tongue education has been proven internationally to be the most successful developmental medium in a child's formative years. So I hold no brief for English to have favoured status over any other language.

Raymond: Ek stem saam, dit is absurd! Maar hoekom blameer jy Afrikaans as taal hiervoor?

CS:
The reason I referred to Afrikaans was because the specific school I was told about doesn't offer any other choices. Therefore Afrikaans (and yes, English) are presently both 'compulsory' because of this lack of choice.

Raymond: Dit is nie hoe jy dit uitgedruk het in jou oorspronklike skrywe nie, Clive, jy het spesifiek al jou insette gemik op Afrikaans as taal, en nie Afrikaans en Engels nie. Jy het gese dat jy geskrik het toe jy onlangs agterkom Afrikaans is verpligtend (En nie Afrikaans en Engels nie) En dan, was jy "vertel" van die skool? Het jy eers gaan seker maak of dit wel so is? Ek is seker jy het, en weereens, is dit rede genoeg om Afrikaans van die ventilator en "life support" af te haal? Weereens, hoekom nie net gese het dat die skole in staat gestel moet word om meer keuses te voorsien nie. Nee wat Clive, jou aanval was op Afrikaans, en niks anders nie, en jy weet dit!

CS:
Good question. It shows that assumptions about things changing are not always the same as the actuality!

Raymond: Clive, dalk moet jy meer uit jou droomwereld wakkerskrik en "face the reality" dat Afrikaans kook broer!!

CS:
Please see my earlier comment. I think it's plain dumb to teach a kid in other than a Mother language. Most rural black kids are taught English in an African language anyhow. The Israelies (and I'm NOT Jewish before someone goes there) use a process called 'saturation' - in which all exposure - reading, music, radio, TV, newpapers and magazines, is in Hebrew. That's been found to be most effective - to concentrate on a single vernacular until it's thoroughly imprinted.

Raymond: Daarom, glo ek dat dit enige ouer se plig is om sy kind in skole te sit waar dit van toepassing is? Dit is mos die ouer se vrye keuse?

CS:
I guess because they're making choices that they believe will be best for their kids. That will maintain cultural norms, mores and traditions. The Indian and Jewish people (as I mentioned in my very original article) have adopted that same approach for many years. They've set up 'outside-of-school' extra-curricular structures to make that possible.

Raymond: Presies, die Xhosa kind se ouers het ook mos 'n keuse waar die kind moet skoolgaan, hoekom kies hulle dan die spesifieke skool?

CS:
If that is what you choose to believe, I have no way of pesuading you otherwise. I don't understand why discussion about Afrikaans has to be seen as an attack on Afrikaners. Because in my mind it isn't. What could I possibly have against Afrikaners? Even awful treatment at the hands of one corporal van der Watt and a lunatic sergeant Kriek during my national service days didn't generate hatred, so why would I start now? That's the truth.

Raymond: Aaaah! Clive, is dit nie dalk waar jou probleem is nie, daardie mislike army dae, en Afrikaanse mense wat jou moes touwys maak nie? "Denial" is dus waar jy nou is, "thats the truth" en dalk, net dalk moet jy 'n sielkundige oorweeg om jou uit hierdie "denial" te kry sodat jy jou verlede in die army mee kan vrede maak?

CS
The disappointment in this whole attempt to get a debate going (I asked 'What do you think?' at the end of my original article), is that people choose to see discussion about some facet of their culture as an attack on them personally. Forgive my dof-heid, but I can't understand that. I turned the argument around in my mind and asked myself this: If an Afrikaans writer had written those things about English, how would I as an English-speaking South African have felt. Know what? My honest conslusion is that I'd think, 'OK - your view, I don't agree with it' and turn the page or scroll down.

Raymond: Dalk, net dalk is jy nie so 'n trotse landsburger soos ons nie?

CS:
My (possibly faulty) reasoning goes like this: If there are two subjects and no alternative to those subjects, they become 'compulsory' because there's no other choice. There are schools in which you cannot take an African language as the second language because there are no teachers in those schools to teach that language. I also understand that if you are in a school where you're learning an African language, it might limit the choice of schools to which you might wish to transfer in another area if they don't offer the same facility. Tell me what's incorrect in the logic of this and I'll happily embrace the 'new view'.

Raymond: Glad niks verkeerd met bogenoemde paragraaf van jou nie, wat verkeerd is daaraan, dat jy direk in kontras met bogenoemde dit slegs op Afrikaans blameer het.

CS:
Dan Roodt of http://www.praag.org suggested I 'abhored' Afrikaners. I said to Dan that if God were standing with us, I could look Dan in the eye and tell him that I don't even actively DISLIKE anyone else, much less 'abhor' something or someone. The only things I abhor are dishonesty, injustice and cruelty.

Raymond: Maar in jou "honesty" het jy dit goed gevind om Afrikaans die "culprit" te maak?

CS:
That's absolutely not an issue - it's an Afrikaans site. I apologise for not being able to express my views adequately enough in Afrikaans. Thank you for the opportunity of being able to present my thinking to your forum readers.

Raymond: Dis vir my 'n groot plesier, rerig, dit is!

CS:
In my heart and mind, all of humankind and indeed consciousness are my sisters and brothers. So I don't need to find a special relationship with Akrikaans-speaking people. I have the same respect for them.

Raymond: Nou ja, jy het'n groot gedeelte van jou sisters en brothers beledig, so al wat jy hoef te doen om terug omhels te word is: "Vra omverskoning"


----------------
Groetnis
Kraaipromosies Admin
Want ons smaak Afrikaans

Barry

Goeie dag Clive

Dis jammer vir jou jy kan nie eens jou kritici in Afrikaans antwoord nie - dink net hoe effektief sou DIT gewees het. Jy dring nie deur na my nie want ek verstaan nie wat jy probeer se nie. En dis ook jammer omdat van die intelligentste en invloedrykste mense in die land Afrikaans is. As jy dink 'n matrikulant gaan nie baat vind daaruit om Afrikaans te kan praat as hy uit die skool kom nie, is jy baie oningelig.

As Afrikaans en Engels die enigste tale is wat aangebied word op sekere skole, dan is dit agv die gewone aanbod en aanvraag kragte wat geld vir enigiets.

Wat my geen einde irriteer nie is jou arrogante houding. Jy klink so ingenome met jouself om Afrikaans 'n hou toe te dien. Dit is duidelik dat jou intensies maar net is om 'n bietjie reaksie te ontlok en vir jouself 'n naampie te maak. As jy in die proses op 'n hele volk se kop moet trap, wel dis 'n klein prys om te betaal, is dit nie? Hoe durf jy praat van genadedood terwyl jou kennis van Afrikaans duidelik baie beperk is?

Kry 'n lewe, regtig. Jou stem verteenwoordig niemand nie. Ek dink jy moet 'n sensus hou: mense moet stem of Afrikaans of jy eintlik die genadedood moet kry.

http://www.patterntub.blogspot.com/

Matt Benic

Hi Clive,
While I agree with some of the spirit of your original article (that minority, and indeed all cultures, should be nurtured and protected by appropriate persons and that the government should not be expected to assume that role), I have to agree with your Afrikaner critics that there is a distinct feeling of hostility towards Afrikaans in your article. We as English-speaking South Africans are typically not as defensive about our language as it does not make up a core part of our culture (we are, after all a very mixed group as far as cultural history is concerned) but that is not the case with other groups. The backlash would have been just as severe had you suggested the 'euthenasia' of Zulu or Xhosa. Finally, would it not have been more appropriate to specifically state that by 'compulsory', you actually meant a lack of options? A school being unable to provide a wide selection of language choices is very often a result of the financial difficulties of providing additional teachers -or possibly even a lack of interest on the part of the students and parents- and is very different to a 'compulsory' language as imposed by the education department.
Finally I must agree with you on the point that where possible, students should be instructed using their home language wherever possible, and only after a certain age should additional languages be introduced.
Regards,
Matt

RC

Regtig ou maat. Dis moffies soos jy wat jou soort 'n slegte naam gee. I promise you now...when I see you in the street, I will punch you. Looks like you get a kick out of pissing people off. We all know what you look like and when it comes to english pricks like yourself, the Afrikaans community will stand together to put a stop to all your utter nonsense. So I think this is a fair warning....watch your back from now on. Poephol!!!

Andre

Clive

There are certain things in this world that you leave be and accept its existence. For instance, the sky is blue, grass is mostly green, the Boks might not win another world cup, Telkom will always rip us off and Afrikaans. Being a very proud Afrikaner myself, I can just come to the conclusion that your article might have been written after you had 1 or 2 bottles of Tequila or some other type of drink that would induce the kind of stupidity needed to try and take on Afrikaans as a language in South Africa ... If even the great British empire failed to subdue us Afrikaners (and yes, when the Boers fought and won, it was for you too) then you are going to have your hands full.

Yes, I agree that mother language education is beneficial for every young mind but when in South Africa, learn Afrikaans and English as this will help you in your future. And leaving the education part of behind us (that seems to have been discussed enough), what other language that you know of where you can really express your feelings as clearly as in Afrikaans. Take RC’s last comment – he could have said asshole but that would not have evoked the right emotions for his comments. Closing of with Poephol just cements his feeling of absolute disgust with you … you can picture his face when he says it ….

You probably would have taken a lot less shots if you chose another topic, but in this day and age where Afrikaners (and other cultures too, but look at the farm killings for instance) are being killed of left, right and centre, the last thing we need is an attack on our language as well – no matter how unintentional it might have been …. Instead of explaining yourself, rather submit a formal apology to the Afrikaans speaking citizens of this country and accept that you made a mistake. Looking forward to your reply ….

André

Jacques du Plessis

Most of the guys before me contributed in the general feeling around your comments, but failed to highlight how a supposedly intellectual person can show in public how intellectually inferior he is.

Well done!!!! I would suggest relocation to another part of the world and upping your medical and insurance premiums. Oh yes, and don’t bash Afrikaans once you leave country, as you are very likely to meet Afrikaans speaking people out there.

Foreigner

A persons views should be allowed to be expressed in public and he should face the consequences of them. This Clive has done. The fact that a few people still get upset and emotional about someone else views and claim to speak for the majority and shout for apology after apology is ludicrous. Who elected you? Not the people of South Africa that has been shown time and again in every election since 1994. In a free democratic society Clive has said his view, you have had yours, you guys are no longer can dictate to others so get over yourselves and do something more productive.

Andre

Obviously, Foreigner, you are still clinging to the past, as the rest of us aren't ... so PLEASE get over yourself ... PS where you from ??

Andre

mmmm No reply yet ????

Clive Simpkins

Andre, thanks for the comments and the implied threats. I've replied ad nauseam to these issues on the moneyweb blog, so if you'll excuse me, I'm not going to repeat all the same stuff here. The URL is http://www.moneyweb.co.za/blogs/clive_simpkins/

evert

Dear Clive,

Dont you get the irony here? You now seem no different from those in good old 76 who wanted Afrikaans forced "them african" throats. Now you want to force down another "African" language down new throats. By taking away Afrikaans, one of the official languages (and just happens to be a major one just go check your stats ) you are acting sadly no different from those racist ignorant xenophobes in the old Regime.

Post apartheid, new South Africans should try not (at least not so blatantly) repeat apartheids mistakes, we (should) know now better Clive, no?

From someone very concerned about a creeping xenophobia manifesting itself in you.

Afrikaner in Tanzania

Clive

I just want to thank for reminding me why we are here and not in SA. I am so shocked when a friend mailed this to me. I cant figure out where you from, maybe the USA or maybe you are one of those shits that left SA and are back to abuse the country and the system that brought you up or maybe not. But boy if I run into you in Tanzania, well all I can say is sorry to hear about your shit...

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